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Ruminations Regarding Religions

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Affairs' started by Insp Gadget, Jan 21, 2018.

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  1. LCFrost

    LCFrost Trusted Member

    I was raised Jewish, but my mom is the tri-county regional champion belt-buckle holder in Sheer Nuttery, which kind of spoiled me on religion in general.

    I consider myself an atheist, but I allow for the possibility of a creator being; just not one that gives a shit about any of us personally. There are a million potential analogies, but what it boils down to is this:

    If there is a Good, and God cares about people, It clearly cares more about some people than others. And if you look at the kind of people who appear to have gotten the favor of this God, you tend to find that they're the absolute worst people out there. The people who lie and cheat and steal and manipulate on the most massive possible scale have the most riches and the most power and the best lives. Meanwhile, the people who don't do any of that and who just try to be decent people end up struggling just to be comfortable.

    Which means we really need to look at our definition of "good" and "bad" as far as God's actions are concerned, rather than through It's alleged words.

    And even in the OT, God does a lot of nasty shit (sending bears to kill kids, instructing his people to rip the unborn from the wombs of their enemies, making a gentleman's wager with Shaitan for which Job gets the ever-loving shit kicked out of him over and over again, etc). And God is defined as "good". Maybe it's not a contradiction.

    Or, the other possibility, is that God doesn't care and it's not a coincidence that the books of the Bible have God telling his people to do awful shit, that they were already doing, to the people they were already doing it to.
     
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  2. gwcc

    gwcc Trusted Member

    If you think that success and Godly favor = money and the things of this world, then you would think the rich and successful are the ones who God favors. If you were a Christian who actually believes the Bible, you would know that nothing could be further from the truth.

    We are less to God than ants are to us. The Bible is very clear - all mankind is created by God, but only some men/women are children of God. And God doesn't hide how to become His child. It's all in the Bible. If you aren't His child, then God offers you none of His favor or protection. To God, you are a failed creation who had the potential to be, but fell away and was not to be. A wasted soul. Harsh? Sure is. That's why so few actually want to even believe it. They only see the harshness of God and not the joy and contentment He offers.
     
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  3. TriadSibling

    TriadSibling Bro/Sis Enthusiast

    But what's important to note is that even with all of that, one can still be within His favor by seeking salvation (Romans 10:9-10). The catch is, you have to be willing to already believe it, because that's a prerequisite to that salvation (says everything right in the verse).
    So, there is always hope, unless you flat out refuse to have faith.
     
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  4. gwcc

    gwcc Trusted Member


    Agreed 100%.
     
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  5. LCFrost

    LCFrost Trusted Member

    That's the basis of Calvinism, and to a greater extreme, Prosperity Gospel. Which is to say that the evidence that you are a good person is how much God has protected and favored you. So no poor person, struggling against poverty and violence and oppression, can be a *real* Christian because if they were, God would have given them favor and protection.

    See also: Just World Philosophy.
     
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  6. Brutus58

    Brutus58 Trusted.Member

    I like this thread. I am learning a lot. I just love good debating and sharing of ideas/knowledge. Isn't that what a forum is all about?
     
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  7. gwcc

    gwcc Trusted Member


    Again, you view God's favor and protection as worldly things. It is not . Rather, it is spiritual. There are millions of struggling, poor people who know God's favor and protection. That doesn't mean nothing bad will ever happen to you or that you'll hit the lottery. Those are things of the world. God exists above all those things.

    Prosperity Gospel was really coined during the early days of televangelism. 'Send us your money and you'll receive 10 fold in return from God'. The Truth is, 'Follow the teachings of the Bible, and you'll receive God's blessings'. Blessings could equal money. Or not. It could mean opportunities, or happiness and joy, or peace or a multitude of things. Money, power and celebrity are almost never God's favor from what I can see.
     
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  8. TriadSibling

    TriadSibling Bro/Sis Enthusiast

    Exactly.
    Also, I'd like to mention that people tend to get the concept of those blessings all wrong as well.
    They think "Oh, well I'll pray, and that's supposed to make God give me a car/money/spontaneous healing/etc." But God doesn't work that way, either.
    God doesn't give everything to us, because if he did that, we'd learn nothing. What he does do, is afford us the tools we need to get the job done, whether that's knowledge, or circumstance, or something similar. People have this funny idea that God is supposed to give us everything on that silver platter, but the reality is, God wants us to learn for ourselves, and to always be working toward that end, be it solely in spirituality, or also in anything else.
    That's one of the reasons we have free will: He's not going to tell us what to do, he's only going to show us what we can do, even open the door in some situations, but we have to be willing to work for it.
     
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  9. LCFrost

    LCFrost Trusted Member

    Here's the problem I have with the Free Will Defense.

    The idea is that even though sinning leads to eternal hell, God allows us to do so without any instantaneous consequences because he likes our free will.

    Problem 1: Because the worldly consequences of sin are not instantaneous, and are often quite enjoyable (the uncountable sinful versions of sex come to mind), there is vast disagreement over what constitutes a sin - disagreement that God is unwilling or unable to clear up Himself, and which must be determined by consulting a dealer's choice of Abrahamic texts (Torah and supporting works, Bible, or Quran and supporting works). This leads directly to many people sinning when they wouldn't otherwise, which is a contradiction of free will.

    2) God does have a system that he has already used to prevent us from engaging in certain actions without compromising our free will to do so: pain. We have the free will to stick our hands in fire, but we choose not to because it is instantaneously painful. Even though the consequences for such an action are temporary, He decided we should have guidance away from them. But when it comes to the eternal consequences of sin, he chose not to use this already-installed mechanism, and in many cases, allowed those sins to have the exact opposite effect.

    Why? It makes no sense. Why isn't adultery immediately painful, like stepping on a nail? The consequences are far worse, and I have free will in both cases.
     
  10. TriadSibling

    TriadSibling Bro/Sis Enthusiast

    I don't buy into that concept at all, and I'd argue there's little to support the idea in the bible. The idea that sinning puts us into hell is more likely to be an earthly, humanly written idea, added later to certain branches that follow the bible, as a means to get their followers to do specific things, or follow specific kinds of leaders. If sinning truly sent us to hell, as certain religious leaders like to claim, then the promise of salvation would be meaningless. Since we know salvation isn't meaningless, then that means the concept of sin leading to hell certainly isn't true.

    There are literally thousands of sins written in the bible, and each and every one of them are committed by people every day. The problem isn't that we sin, because that's been our nature ever since adam and eve screwed up paradise. The problem is that we don't learn anything after doing so.

    Also, pain is an earthly concept, of earthly design. It's temporary, just like our stay here is, so whether our actions lead us to pain or not, and whether that pain is immediate or not, nothing that comes of it is permanent. We're certainly free to live our lives how we choose, and we can choose to seek that pain, or to live a bountiful life.
     
  11. gwcc

    gwcc Trusted Member


    Sorry Triad, I have to go with Jesus on the existence of and intentions of Satan and of hell...

    Matthew 10:28 -
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 25:41
    Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

    Matthew 13:49-50
    This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Mark 9:43
    If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

    There are several other passages about hell in the NT and others in the OT as well. The theme of all is the same. Those who sin and don't repent will be separated from God for all eternity. And they will go to hell, where their spirit will live in darkness and torment for all of eternity.

    Sucks, but it's what the Bible says.
     
  12. Brutus58

    Brutus58 Trusted.Member

    How I love a good debate!
     
  13. TriadSibling

    TriadSibling Bro/Sis Enthusiast

    But see, that's what salvation was for, that's why Jesus died on the cross in the first place, to wash away our sins so that the old laws do not apply. Nothing, not even sin, can take away the promise of salvation.
     
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  14. gwcc

    gwcc Trusted Member


    True. But salvation isn't just given. One has to seek it. It is there and it is free. But you have to seek it out and accept it. If you don't, then you aren't saved and you aren't getting into Heaven. All the versus I cited were from the NT, not the OT. Jesus told of hell and Satan and that if you don't know Him, you won't get into Heaven.


    Matthew 7:21-23
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
     
  15. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

    If there was immediate consequences for committing Sin, then there would be no Free-Will
     
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  16. LCFrost

    LCFrost Trusted Member

    So I don't actually have free will when it comes to putting my hand on hot things?

    That's, to be nice, horse pucky. I've lost my fear of fire because of a number of nasty childhood experiences, and even though I have an immediate consequence for putting out a loose cigarette cherry with my bare fingers, I still choose to do it and accept that consequence.

    Immediate consequence doesn't take away free will. It allows for an unambiguous learning experience that informs future choices.
     
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  17. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

  18. buffyfan

    buffyfan Moderator Staff Member

    I will point out my 2 issues with Christianity.

    1 and largest. It is not, technically, Monotheistic. Unless there was no God for the 33 years while Jesus was here? Two different beings. Plus Mary and Saints.

    2. The fact that most of it's followers claim that all other covenants were broken, but CONSTANTLY quote the Pre Jesus rules.
     
  19. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

    Getting rid of religion because you don't like a couple things about it, is like getting rid of houses because you don't like cutting down trees. Have fun fighting it out for a cave.
     
  20. gwcc

    gwcc Trusted Member


    1. God as 3 parts is still God. God the Father and Creator. God the Son, who was a part of God made man. And God the Spirit, the part of God who indwells within those who accept it. Still only one God.

    2. All older covenants were replaced with the new one, not necessarily broken. As Jesus Himself said, "I did not come to destroy (the law) but rather to fulfill it." Therefore, Jesus came to show mankind how to fulfill the laws of God. How to live as God intended us to live and be followers of Him. In castigating the Pharisees, Jesus said they were experts on the law, but did not know how to live the law. They had placed the law over God and obeying them over obeying God.
     
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